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5/28/2015 1:34:24 PM
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I posted this on another Christian thread, I'd appreciate your take. The other guy just babbled on about free will and didn't answer the question at all. Thank you.
God's all knowing; past, present, future, correct? So he knew before creating mankind that ultimately, let's say 70% of all humans to walk the earth will go to hell. I think that's a fair number, most people across history probably haven't/won't accept Christ as their savior (the key for the kingdom of heaven) for whatever reason; they're another religion, athiest, etc. But for the sake of arguing that number we'll say 50%. So, half of all humans ever, billions of people will go to hell.
So, god created his children knowing that at least half of them, billions, would ultimately burn in a lake of fire for all eternity so he could have the devout ones in heaven with him.
Now, my wife and I are currently having trouble getting pregnant. If a doc came up to me and said "hey, I can get you 10 kids...but, we're gonna have to throw 5 of them into a furnace at some point in their life." Obviously I would reject that offer.
Not the best comparison but you get the idea.
Even if only one person out of the billions across human history were to be condemned to hell, I think that's a pretty messed up, unfair plan.
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Think of it this way: God knows your outcome based on decisions you will make throughout your life. But the one thing he cannot effect is this decision you make. That is free will. He gives you the choice to do as you please and to make whatever decisions you see fit. But he knows the outcome of all possible choices you do make. I believe that whether it is here on Earth, or somewhere after this life on Earth is over, that someone will be faced with deciding whether or not they want to believe in the Holy Bible and that Jesus died on the cross for them. I don't believe that people are predestined to Hell, but I do believe that Satan or other religions reach people first and convince them before ever having a chance to feel God's grace. It's a sad thing to think about, but as a Christian, it should be our goal to try and douse as many of those flames as we can and to bring lost souls into the light to see what it's all really about. At least they get to live a life with as much sin as they please before they go to Hell. A life that God gave them to enjoy as they please. They simply choose other means of pleasure and enjoyment and refuse the idea that happiness in God is the greatest happiness of all. Heaven is perfect, an idea that we as humans simply cannot fathom.
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I dunno man. I get what your saying, I get the whole free will thing. But ultimately god knows there's ton of people that are gonna end up in hell, and if it was up to me i wouldn't create mankind and prevent that suffering. Maybe my question can't be answered as to why he created us anyways knowing this, only he can answer it i guess.
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Yes, a question only he could answer I suppose. He created life. But if he wanted everyone to be perfect and decided to create every single person without flaw and with intentions to send every single one to Heaven, then why even place us on Earth? He would have just created us all in Heaven from the beginning. You have to inherit your passage to Heaven, in which God wants for every single one of us. But fact is, some people simply won't.
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But by saying that if he wanted everyone to go to heaven he wouldn't have put us on earth, you're essentially saying he wanted some people to go to hell, and knew that they would. If I knew my son was destined to eternal torture before I even had him, I simply wouldn't allow him to be born because no matter what I did to prevent it, [b]by definition[/b] It couldn't be worse than eternal torture.
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I like to think that if God were real, he'd leave the world alone as much as possible so he'd truly give us free will instead of barging in on things that he doesn't like so he can sway our minds. Also, since he's omnipotent, wouldn't it be possible for him to not look at the future at all? That would solve the issue of him knowing who goes to hell and "condemning" them when he makes then. Do either of those theories make sense?
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Eh I guess
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Damn, these atheist folk are hard-headed assholes. They won't even let you have a second thought about God besides that he "doesn't exist".
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I've dwelled on this for a while before. God isn't bound by time. He sees your future past and present, but doesn't alter your free will, or others free will, the fact that he isn't bound by time is how he's able to go through and know everyone's life. It's pretty cool if you think about, it's like he's just watching your life story and yet after your story is done he can go through and watch another's.
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This explanation still doesn't challenge the fact the god KNOWS. However he knows, he knows many will burn in hell but creates us anyways. I get the unaltered free will thing but my point is simply: God knows the sad fate of many and creates us anyways I would not selfishly create a race to have followers knowing that billions with suffer for eternity
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But God is not condemning them to Hell. They are condemning themselves when they do not accept Jesus as their savior. He has already paid the punishment for our sins, and when we accept him, then our punishment is paid. Those who do not accept him do not have anyone to pay the punishment for their sins except their own selves. God is a just God. He has to punish sin. So people can either accept the punishment Jesus has already endured for their sins, or they can reject him and pay for their sins themselves in hell.
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Right I get all that, we have a choice. But he creates mankind with prior knowledge that many will end up suffering. I dunno, I wouldn't create a race knowing that many will suffer just so I can have a few in heaven with me.
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Right I get all that, we have a choice. But he created us with prior knowledge that many will burn in hell. I dunno, I wouldn't create a race knowing so many will end up suffering just so I can have a few in heaven with me.
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So what r u saying? That you will not believe in God because a lot of people will go to hell for not believing in him?
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That's one of my reasons for not believing yes...I just think that's really really F-ed up on God's part. Just think how selfish that is for a minute. 'I'm gonna create this race so I can have some followers. But many many more will end up in hell and I am fully aware of their fates prior to creating them but I will anyways'
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But it's not fair to accuse God of being "f-Ed up" when looking at this from a human perspective. Our minds have a limited understanding of all things. But he is not limited to anything. There's more to it than just that
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Sigh, look I don't wanna be rude, but do u realize how brainwashed that sounds. 'We cant understand god or why things happen, so just dont question things ok?' I know beefcake already told you this. And yes it is fair to accuse god. He made everything
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Ok I have a question. If you, beefcake, (or any other atheists that match this upcoming description) do not believe that God exists, then why try so hard to persuade us that he doesn't exist, or persecute us, or try to make us question our beliefs? Like beefcake calling me brainwashed because I believe what I believe. And in that long paragraph he/she typed calling me or anyone else who believes this "ludicrous" idea "stupid". Why do yall care what we believe, if you do not believe God exists? For example, beef cake thinks that beef cake is a disgusting food, however, I enjoy it. He thinks it's the worst food ever made, but I happen to think its the best food ever made. It is not scientifically proven whether this tastes good to me or not, so would it make since for him to call me brainwashed/stupid because I BELIEVE that this is the best food ever, even though he/she has the opposite opinion?
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It's more like you thinking that a dog shit sandwich with a donkey semen sauce on top is good. I'm sitting here thinking there is no way you can actually believe that tastes good, and all you can say is that all I need to do is believe and have faith that it is good or I burn in hell for eternity.
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And it's not more like that because that would obviously be bad for you. Believing in God is bad for you how?
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Because it is equivalent to believing in imaginary friends. It's not healthy, has caused countless wars throughout history, and ruins critical thinking because you refuse to leave your box of ideas for fear of burning in hell.
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First, it's unhealthy how? Second, Christ has not caused wars. That's humans manipulating greed or others tuff as "Gods will". And I think critically about things all the time, mind you
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U still haven't answered my question
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You don't hear how brainwashed you are, do you?
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Brainwashed by who? An almighty supernatural being who cares for me and loves me more than I know, who I can depend on for anything and he will always come through? If this is the case then I'd be gladly brainwashed by him. But it's not brainwashing. It's a relationship between a father and a child.
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God created us in his image and loves us, but we are inherently sinners and evil and must be forgiven. Doesn't that sound fishy to you? I don't believe God exists because this all powerful being refuses to reveal himself and I don't have "faith". I live a great moral life, but I'll burn in hell for eternity apparently, sound fair to you?
