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5/4/2015 2:34:00 PM
145
Thorn: Overpowered vs Overused
Thorn is currently a major cause of unrest within the Destiny community.
It is an exotic and Bungie has stated that they want exotics to be [i]somewhat[/i] overpowered.
Currently many people are on the fence if Thorn is in fact OP; my argument is that Thorn is [b]not[/b] OP, but OU.
[b]Poison Damage[/b]
Ah yes, the venom that eats your guardian's light from within, "OP" you may scream, but no, this is the main reason that Thorn is OU and not OP.
The thing about Thorn's poison damage is that it conditions people to[b]ALWAYS[/b] expect the kill after either two or three shots. Therefore I feel that Thorn is OU because it is [b]EASY[/b] not because it's OP.
[b]Breaking it down[/b]
What other weapon allows you to disengage after hitting an enemy a certain amount of times because you're guaranteed the kill? People will gravitate to what's easy [i]and[/i] effective vs what's effective but requires more skill.
The psychology of Thorn breaks down to "If I can hit them twice (head shots) or three times, I win." Seriously though, that's it, three times maximum and that player wins automatically while they get to engage another target without worry.
[b]Possible Solutions[/b]
First, Thorn does not need a nerf, rather, it needs [b]COUNTERS[/b].
Possible counters could be an exotic armor piece that negates the poison effect and/or poisons the Thorn user in retaliation.
A current counter in game is Red Death and the fact it heals you after a kill, problem is, you need to kill the Thorn user before they or its poison kills you.
[b]Conclusion[/b]
Thorn is OU due to its ease of use [b]NOT[/b] the fact that it is OP.
The Vex Mythoclast was OP in the past. With its fast fire rate and 56 head shot damage along with its 56 magazine with enhanced battery, it was too strong. There is nothing (imo) about the Thorn that makes it OP.
[b]TL;DR[/b]
The Thorn is OU due to its ease of use and is not OP, basically it's EZ MOAD.
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Edited by OkamiToge: 5/5/2015 6:10:06 PMSomeone killed me almost half way across the map with it, it sure as hell has too much range.
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I'm at a tough place with Thorn. I normally DESPISE these kids who demand a nerf every time they get killed by a player better then them, or using a gun they want. That being said, Iron Banner this season REALLY put Thorn on the nerf table. I get it's a nightmare to get, I get that exotics should be better then the average weapon, I get that it's legit designed for PvP. I totally understand and respect these things. And that's why I see what you mean by, "overused." Either way, something has to be done about Thorn. However you swing it. I just ask to modify it's insane range to...ya know, the range of an actual hand gun? (Your Thorn should not accurately shoot as far as my scout rifle. That is just unreasonable)
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1 ReplyThorn + Felwinter's Lie + blink= eZ mode scrub
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Edited by TeddyBundy: 5/5/2015 11:50:57 AMThe fact that it's easy to use AND the fact that it's overused imply that it is OP. It also deals way too much damage for a HC with this fast ROF. Suros was OP (easy, overused and too much dmg) too but got nerfed to the ground. Your arguments are invalid.
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1 ReplyI just don't understand the need to make Thorn the longest ranged handcannon in the game. Just... Why?
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5 RepliesThe Thorn is overused because it is OP! You say exotics are meant to be OP because they're exotic? Well what about the Suros, The Nechrocasm, The Hardlight... Can you honestly say they fall in line with the The Thorn?! NO WAY! The Thorn is OP END OFF! And it either needs a Nerf, or the other exotics need to be buffed in order to be able to compete with it! No hand Gun should be able to 2 shot someone with full health from near enough the other side of the map (which I've experienced on many occasions!) and that Includes The Last Word! Another OP hand cannon that dominated proceedings in the last IB!
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I like this post. Plus 1 internets for you.
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Thwag
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3 RepliesThe DoT damage is an issue but most don't realize you can simply crouch to stop it. Thorn hits you, find cover quickly, and crouch. The DoT will fade faster and you can then recover health.
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Not vex op be still a lil op
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It's just overused.
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Thwag
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Edited by xGundamMKII: 5/5/2015 3:42:46 PMGood go to primary for me on maps that tend to be close quarters. For everything else I have been using Red Death recently
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I run with Red Death and I counter 2 out of every 3 thorn users no problem. The Last Word on the other hand... -blam!- that gun
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Many guns can compete with thorn, apart from TLW, red death, hawkmoon there are weapons like the strangers rifle and the mida multi tool. :v
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6 RepliesWhat does overpowered mean?? It means that it's the easiest gun to get kills with, requires little to no skill compared to others. Multiple times in your post, you stated that thorn is easy to use, not OP. That thorn requires much less skill than other weapons. THEY MEAN THE SAME THING EASY TO USE = OP The amount of stupidity in your post and this community amazes me.
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5 RepliesOne of my previous posts. I couldn't find the thread, but here it is. Note: TLW's TTK is actually [i]lower.[/i] Ridiculous. Pre-post *The Hawkmoon is actually way more balanced than TLW/Thorn. Its stability isn't great, and its TTKC isn't completely outrageous when compared to other guns. *I am an avid user of both guns. I want them balanced because I dislike being forced to use them in order to counter them (why I use them). *No, I don't think other guns should be buffed to match these (if you were going to propose this, that just proves how out of line these guns are) because that would be 20x harder than simply balancing these 2 weapons. (TTK = time to kill) (TTKC = time to kill crit) (ADS = aim down sights) TLW TTKC: .56 Thorn TTKC: .36 (this is how long it takes to land two head shots. The number .36 does not account for the burn damage after the two head shots are landed.) [url=https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/tTMPEAOhYplzPIA4B07pBhQ/htmlview]Spread sheet[/url] First of all, if you're one of the few people that are actually willing to take this thread seriously, take a look at that spread sheet and pay attention to the "Time To Kill Crit" column. The hand cannon class, specifically exotic hand cannons, are vastly superior to literally every other weapon except for Red Death and Vex Mythoclast. They're two tenths of a second better than every other primary, and one tenth of a second better than the Mytho & Red Death. This means that if two players, one with TLW and one with RD, are fighting head to head, and both players are using the guns to their full potential, TLW will win 100% of the time. And no, saying "well stay out of close range to avoid TLW" isn't a valid option because of the current maps. The Last Word (TLW) I'll start with TLW. First of all, TLW's exotic perk is broken. It's supposed to deal bonus damage when hip fired, right? Well, currently it's bugged and exploitable. Ever notice how sometimes you'll ADS with it and gain bonus damage? That's the bugged part. Sometimes it randomly decides to give you extra damage. However there's currently an exploit (or bug or whatever you want to call it. Idc about the technicality) that allows you to gain the bonus damage while ADS'd 100% of the time. And it's really easy! All you have to do is press the right trigger before you press the left trigger. Keep both pressed down and bam. 111 head shots for days (I don't mind giving this info out because the more people that do it/know it, the faster it gets patched!). This means that even at medium range TLW can achieve its .56 TTKC fairly consistently. This is specially broken for skirmish where TLW shines, even without abusing its broken perk. Fix: The perk should obviously be fixed. I think we can all agree on that, even if you don't think exotic HCs are OP. The RoF also need to be lowered. I'm not sure how much it needs lowering, but I'll throw out a number and say 2%, giving other weapons a chance against this silly weapon. Thorn Thorn's TTK is a bit confusing. The chart says .36, but that isn't its true TTK if we're being technical. That time (.36) is how fast you can land two head shots, which with the Thorn's stability, isn't too hard for competent players. Of course the enemy isn't immediately dead after two head shots, they still have to burn (so they're basically zombies after two head shots). I accept the number .36 as Thorn's true TTKC because most players blink away to cover after doming someone twice. .36 is MILES above ALL other weapons. That number is better than most LMGs! And the "stay out of close quarters" is an even less valid solution to countering this gun because of its range. Fix: Remove the perfect balance perk from Thorn's tree and reduce its RoF by around 5%. TL;DR: No. Read the post. I'll be ignoring "git gud" type posts unless I need bumps.
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Three words...No Land Beyond, one shot head shots and added salt to the wound
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Edited by EmoSceneRawrXD: 5/5/2015 11:28:14 AMOverpowered vs overused vs AUTO RIFLES NEED A DAMN BUFF
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1 ReplyWhoa whoa whoa hold on here buddy, armor that does something beneficial defensively? Calm down... we don't want Bungie to start implementing armor that adds defensive mechanics! That would make the game more interesting.
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2 RepliesThe poison doesnt apply to enough weapons, thus not warranting the creation of an exotic counter.
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Okay thorn is op 91 damage to the head 2 rapid shots will kill due to burn damage Fast rate of fire Long range Low stability High impact Above average reload Final round is capable of still 2 shotting I use thorn and aren't afraid to admit it needs a rebalance
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2 RepliesIts over used, vex can destroy thorn users only if the user knows how to aim for the head. [spoiler]clearly no one does apparently[/spoiler]
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18 RepliesEdited by Selenophobia: 5/5/2015 3:14:16 AMHow much does vex hit now? I may upgrade mine soon for shits and giggles So yes I should upgrade it.
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5 RepliesIt has counters already. See: Red Death, Suros Regime.
