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Edited by burritosenior: 3/27/2015 5:57:52 AM
15

'Why' should not be asked by fans, but developers.

The Weekly Update this week finally is forcing me to state something that has gnawed at me for months now. Fans have asked for six months for reasons for certain decisions made by Bungie- the number of which is too large to say here. Yet this whole time, Bungie has developed this arrogant, or at the very least misguided, attitude of being aloof and vague. Many terrible choices have been made regarding Destiny, which is made all the worse for the parts that were done right. Fans speak up and are patted on the head and sent away with smiles and lollipops if they are acknowledged at all. The interaction becomes one of somebody asking for something then the 'adult' being condescending. The fans (I hesitate to use the term 'community' since it seems to be official policy to stamp out any communities that exist here) analyze everything to death. They are constantly demanding explanations. And if I were at Bungie, I would be very tired of having to rationalize every little decision I made over the last few years. So why is it that the fans are still the ones asking the questions at all? The straw that broke the camel's back. Vault space. It is great that explanations for why only so much space could be added were in the weekly update. I'm sure that culled a lot of threads, though clearly not all of them (ignorance will persist no matter what is done- the most we can do is limit it). But there is a part where it is said that only so many players have full vaults. The implication behind this is that while more space is highly demanded, it is not something really needed. So if people at Bungie are doing all the explaining, why on Earth did they not delve into the reasons [i]for[/i] these numbers? My vault isn't full. Do you know why? It's because I've had to delete so many things, and store so many items on my characters so I have room to move gear around. Why did nobody question why these numbers are such before using them as the basis for their decisions? Another problem is this statement: [quote] Different players have different needs, but our goal was to find a solution that could deliver more Vault space to the greatest number of people in the short term. [/quote] I keyed in immediately on 'short term.' Why is every decision Bungie is making about short term goals? Bungie was always community focused because it provided longevity- they were successful because of it. Bungie wants this series to last a decade as Halo did, but already people are stopping. Admittedly after an extravagant amount of time played, but we all know the complaints about repetitiveness in those hours so I won't get into them now (I'll provide more details after Queen's Wrath 2, coming this time two years from now after Iron Banner #30). Bungie keeps addressing the superficial problems and won't even [i]talk about[/i] the underlying issues we all know about. The fact that all we can get out of Bungie are such superficial sentiments about how they want to 'do better' is just staggering. Why are players leaving? Well, every event is the same exact one- Iron Banner over and over again which provides nothing for those already level 30/32 (depending on when the event was), Nightfalls and Heroics are the same strike so you have to do it twice, and there aren't any major changes to them each week so they're repetitive, enemy spawns are consistent, etc. Crota's End was not mechanically difficult, just artificially difficult because enemy levels were higher. That isn't fun at all. Why do so few people care about PvP? Well, because all we have is Slayer and variations of Slayer, there are no private games (God only knows what the hell happened when that conversation came up in the office, though something akin to [url=http://www.fbcomics.com/images/comics/New%20idea%20for%20Memes%20D.jpg]this picture[/url] seems the most obvious). These are big problems, and we all know it. Yet Bungie has repeatedly shown they are either uninterested or unwilling to fix or even talk about these issues. We cannot get a serious statement out of them without a condescending tone or a 'well I cannot talk about it yet.' And this is not at all a rant about Deej- this is about Bungie's [complete 180 degree turn from the Halo era] policy towards their fans in general, and their continual insistence on ignoring the deeper issues or dubbing insignificant the real flaws in their title. Bungie needs to let their PR team stop with the condescension and let them give us an actual conversation worth having, because these one way conversations of fans posting and someone like Deej randomly going 'we are listening' are not in any way conductive to anything substantial aside from increasing the volume of whining that gets pushed in as a whole. The black curtain policy has failed, is failing repeatedly, and needs to be changed. The PR team needs the green light from whomever their boss is, and the developers themselves need to start asking questions instead of leaving that just up to the whim of the day by the fans- especially since so many of these developers seem to be new to Bungie and possibly inexperienced with such a title. [spoiler] By the way, regarding vault space I'll admit I'm curious why games such as Borderlands on last-gen consoles and the likes can show so many items at once without a problem, but Destiny can't even show their pictures let alone the weapons themselves at once. That's sort of unrelated, though.[/spoiler]

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  • The vagueness is real.

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  • Edited by Dednox: 3/29/2015 12:08:09 PM
    Lately, I've realized something. We don't need to say anything, really. Of course we can, and, evidently, we will, but we don't really NEED to. The reason is simple. They'll listen, whether we scream it from the mountain tops or never say a word at all. This is because of the numbers. The numbers are what they care about. They want players constantly playing. They want people to buy their DLC's. They want money. All of which are important "numbers" that they keep a keen eye on day in and day out. However, none of that will be possible if people continue to quit- and that's just what's happening. Now, this is not to say that EVERYONE will quit- no, not at all. But, enough people will quit. Enough people to make those numbers go down. Then and only then will the sound barrier break and they WILL hear everything. They'll have no choice.

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  • I don't think you made a single point I don't agree with, and it hurts. The reason I stuck with this community had a lot to do with the involvement of Bungie and the attitude they had. It's the reason I was always quick to name Bungie as my favorite developer, but now? The attitude, wether it's intentional or not, really does filter down to us as condescending and uninterested, and even if that's not the goal, that's what it's like, and as someone who knows what Bungie was like before, I can't help but wonder why no one gives a shit anymore.

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  • Edited by ash: 3/27/2015 6:07:30 PM
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    I don't wish to knock your opinions since feedback is always good and healthy. But I think there are a few false statements here. [quote]this is about Bungie's [complete 180 degree turn from the Halo era] policy towards their fans in general[/quote] I remember the good old days, where Shishka would ban you for talking about BR/SMG starts in the Optimatch forum. Some people were so vehemently upset with Bungie's handling of Halo 2's matchmaking that a nasty rift emerged in the community. Then playlists like Team Hardcore and gametypes like Slayer BR started popping up a year later, and everyone forgot about that particular schism. All of the rage washes away in hindsight and becomes rose-tinted. Dammit if we didn't find more stuff to complain about though... I think nostalgia is playing a larger part here than it should be. Hell, people are already chuckling to themselves about silly old Master Rahool. They weren't chuckling back in September. Bear in mind Halo didn't move as quickly as Destiny. It didn't have frequent game patches, community focus on the front page, the Bungie twitch account with its Bungie Bounties, the Ride Along commentaries, etc. as well as the recent developer Q+A. Do you remember when Frankie wrote that mini-essay about his love for in-game water? Wasn't that hilarious? The community at the time didn't think so... They were livid at yet another vague/condescending weekly update during a dry-spell of news. I think Bungie have been more communicative than ever tbh... However, I think the issue stems from this... Destiny is a larger game with more features. For instance, when DeeJ started talking about the long-sought-after heavy ammo fix, people scream "You're ignoring us Bungie! We want news on vault space!". And then when they acknowledge our concerns about vault space... many times... they are being "vague" about it until meticulous details are spilled (details not yet set in stone). Unless DeeJ somehow promises updates for every aspect of the game, he'll be seen as ignoring some of us. A lack of commitment to details will be seen as vague, and condescending. It's just inevitable. And it's nothing new. [quote]Why did nobody question why these numbers are such before using them as the basis for their decisions?[/quote] Why did you assume that the statistics guys know nothing about statistics? Asking how the telemetry guys could be this naive, is ironically... a naive question.

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    • I think it's because of Activision, at this point. Not so much because they have a say, but because shareholders are so heavily involved. Pretending to not have a problem is better than addressing that there is one, when it comes to money, apparently.

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      • 1
        This thread and threads like it have existed for as long as I can remember, so I'm not entirely sure things have changed as much as assertions in this thread would indicate.

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        • I agree with this post 100%. I've got all 3 classes at 32 and right now I'm doing the same stuff over and over. Sure, I don't mind since the game IS fun. But then again, some new content with more then a hard version of whatever we've been doing before would be sweet. And for the past 3 months there has been no other "event" except the lagfest we all know as Iron Banner. It's like Bungie has put Destiny on autopilot and wants the game to crash.

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          • I definitely think that the two main points you made, as well as the two main desires, are contents and community/communication. I think shorter intervals are needed between the releases of new content, but I can't say how short or how much content should be released without actual knowledge on what to expect. We know that Destiny is supposed to last a decade or so, but we, the community, don't even have a skeleton plan of what that means. It would be nice for an official announcement on what this game, the sequel, and so on will be built like. The second one is communication. I can't begin to explain why there has been less of this, once again because I have no insight on the company. We can point fingers wherever we please, but the point still stands: the community needs to be spoken to. Not just by DeeJ, but by the company. I don't think weekly updates are enough. I don't have any original ideas on how either of these things can be bettered, but I'm hoping something is done (and sooner than later).

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            • Edited by Ahhsenberg: 3/27/2015 8:45:09 AM
              I've noticed this change in attitude and way of going about things since the launch of Destiny. I'm sure you have as well. I believe this stems from whatever change in management that replaced MS within Bungie itself (board of directors). I don't know what can be done about it, though. Just like the continued lack of website features we want (beating a dead horse here), we can only hope things get better and voice our minds.

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            • Edited by Helveck: 3/27/2015 1:24:27 PM
              I've thought about this several times... Your sentiments, I mean. Pretty much ever since I realized how Destiny had stumbled on a multitude of levels. "What happened? And why are they being so vague and enigmatic about their design plans and fixes?" Clearly the game has changed internally. And not for the better. The condescending tone I don't think is maliciously intentionally, but it's all that they really have to lean on to keep people on a short leash. If they just said "We're stuck and we're not sure how to proceed." People would lose faith. Saying, "Guys, we're listening and we're trying to make this the best we can for all of you dedicated players..." Is nothing but a cheesy, cookie cutter PR response. And I've read it so many times, I feel like they have poor old DeeJ stuck on repeat. The magic that once existed inside the studio has clearly withered. The studio is now a shadow of its former self. And it's a shame to have to admit that. There are so many talented people there, but it's almost as though they all can't get on the same page. What's shocking to me when I take a look back, is that 13 years ago I picked up Halo CE in 2002. I played that game regularly until 2004 and only stopped to pick up Halo 2. And the same was true with every Halo game that followed. Destiny hasn't even been out a year, and I'm pretty much done with it. What's scary, is that I know for certain I'm not the only one. What's disappointing, is that I was - like many others - relying on Destiny to be that game that never left my disc drive, and that I never got tired of. Unfortunately do to the lack of reaction and corrective planning to rectify errors or poor designs, I don't believe it will ever be. Now if Destiny is a sign of things to come, and this process repeats come time for Destiny 2, I truly find myself worried about the future of state of Bungie.

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            • Edited by Sapid: 3/27/2015 12:09:50 PM
              This weekly update was supposed to be good news but it was very poorly worded. Instead of a simple "more vault space! Sorry it's not more but we are working on it" we got "old gen is holding us back (pushing the blame on last gen)" and "we weren't really using the space anyway (we are liars??)" So now there's a war going on between old and current generation AND Bungie is calling us cry babies who don't really know what we want. Awesome. At least the older, forum community members aren't the only ones being treated as second class citizens anymore, now some newer Destiny players are.

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            • Just do what I do. Understand that it's a lost cause, and laugh about it, since there's nothing else you can do.

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            • +1 Though I believe the issue with vault space on old gen lies within the fact that the game must still process everything going on around the player while they are in vault mode, if I remember correctly, the 360 has 1GB of RAM lol.

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            • The part about people not having full vaults annoyed me too. You couldn't have a full vault and transfer items, so of course you kept a space open. It's as you say, we've had to delete our stuff, thays why it isn't full. Then you look at shaders/ships/class items, cosmetics if you will. You can't hold but a handful, especially with all the materials and commendations filling most of the space.

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            • Some interesting thoughts. I don't like the way things are currently operating. I agree with what you say.

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