originally posted in:The Ashen Conflux
I know that as a guardian, and especially as a Titan, it is not my place to question why we fight, but rather to fight for there is little other option.
That being said, in my spare time while not defending the city (for even Exo need some respite) I have been reviewing the information I have garnered in my travels, most notably, the Hive Book of Sorrows.
In reading it, I have no question that there will never be peace between us and those we fight. However, I have come to realize that our fight is not as black and white as it seems.
Each of our foes has their own reasons for why they fight beyond just to extinguish the light.
Let's start with the Fallen, or the Eliksni, easily the most sympathetic of our foes. They were once a proud people whom, much like we are now, were blessed with the Traveler's light. They had a complex civilization spanning many systems, whose technology was likely more advanced than our own. Then, disaster struck with the Whirlwind, stripping them of the Traveler, and by all evidence, their home. They were thrown into space with little supplies and, through time and desperation, have become what we know today. However, they only fight us so that they can once again bathe in the Traveler's light and regain what they lost long ago. They do not serve the darkness, but are more than likely running from it.
Next, let us speak of the Vex, that which I believe is the greatest threat to the city. However, if the Vex truly wanted us gone, there would be little we could do to stop their infinite and timeless army from wiping us out. Which begs the question, if they actually wanted us gone, why haven't they done so already? I believe it is because their goal is not to conquer the universe, or eradicate all life, but rather to understand all. To become omniscient and be able to prevail and survive in all situations. They only "warship" the black heart because when Crota first brought them into this world, they recognized the Hive's warship of the Worm Gods as the source of their power, and tried to emulate it. However, unlike the Hive, they never fused with the worms, never became beings of the darkness. I believe that they fight us not in hopes of defeating us, but in hopes of understanding the Traveler.
Now, let us look at the Cabal. Out of all the enemies we face, their apparent motives are the most straightforward, conquest. What we fight is just the vanguard of a much larger fleet that is likely on it's way. I will not dance around the fact that their goal is to either subjugate or kill us all, however, I doubt that it has anything to do with the Traveler or the darkness. They would have made their way to the Sol system regardless, and with the same goals in mind. And while I will not argue that they are not the enemy, we would have done exactly the same thing in their place. Look at all of human history and you will find that we have been military empires bent on conquest many times in the past.
Finally, we come to the Hive, a society of such cold, basic logic that we all understand it, but reject it still. Their only goal is survival. They are Darwinism in its purest form. They rule through strength and power alone. However, unlike us who were gifted technology and power by the Traveler, they took theirs of their own volition, and this is the difference that makes them persue the Traveler. Their belief is that the only truth is existence, and the power to keep existing. If you are strong enough to take what you need to survive, you continue existing, but if you are too weak, you are destroyed. They view the Traveler as an entity that makes civilizations lazy and weak, so it's lies must be destroyed so that the universe can be free.
I do hope that, at the very least, found my findings interesting, and that I have brought you a better understanding of what we fight. The next time you take sights on some enemy of the city, do not stay your hand, for they are still the enemy. However, I do hope that you will think, even a little, before solving a problem with an excess of bullets, and that maybe, just maybe, we can regain some of that thirst for knowledge and understanding that made our civilization so great.
Signed,
Epesolon, Titan Archivist
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Edited by LEGI0N of 0ne: 12/29/2016 6:45:23 AM"Tell me Jed, what's the difference between us and them?!" "[i]We [b]live[/b] here![/i]" -execution scene from [i]Red Dawn[/i], 1984
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The morality of the fight usually comes down to who shot first. They each invaded our system unprovoked. Regardless of how tragic their backstory, they started the fight
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Two things 1. I'm very curious as to how the Warlocks allowed a Titan to be archivists, because as a Hunter I was never asked to be one (maybe it's my personality) And 2. I'm curious as to how the aforementioned Titan has such knowledge of the time before the Traveler
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I'm not sure why so many people struggle with this. "I lost my home so I'm coming to invade your's" is not a reason for me to feel sorry for the Eliksni. None of the groups approached us in diplomacy. They attacked us. That's why we fight.
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Even from year one, before any of this, I was patrolling the moon and took out some Dregs and thought, "Why are we fighting like this? I killed them unprovoked and get rewarded by the Tower. Are we really the good guys here?"
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>a self insert sort-of-fanfiction story >#lore Why?
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Just because the bad guys think they have a good reason to kill you doesn't make it immoral to kill them back...yes?
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When I had PS4 I played the echo chamber strike and Ikora ray suggested that the vex have manipulated time again and again basically saying that what has happened is not what actually happened they changed things that weren't good for them.
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One noteworthy thing about the Cabal is that they didn't intentially come to the Sol system. This is a very small part of their forces that we fight. And they were running from Oryx's forces. They may be powerful enough to destroy whole planets, but even they understood the power Oryx possessed, and they say their best chance of survival to run. I'd say Mars was supposed to be a temporary refuge, until the Psions found evidence of Charlegmane's vault(The Mars Warmind), inhabited by Rasputin's protocols. The Cabal probably thought that this could be something to turn the fight against the Hive, if they could possess the power of the Warminds. Also, one interesting note is there is a Grimoire card stating that the Cabal actually recognize the existence of Darkness zones, and set up shop.in them, simply because it makes it harder for Guardians to revive and disrupt their operations. Sorry for the essay
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F[b]u[/b]ck you, I want to shoot shit.
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[quote][/quote]Well if I can add somthing when iron banner came to town last time she was talking about how maybe the fallen are just mislead and deserve forgiveness and need to learn to forgive us for the whirlwind, Which may I add wasn't our fault but the traveler fleeing from the darkness. Another point is during the campaign of rise of iron where there is a reoccurring theme of Saladen going crazy over how SIVA is the worst thing every and how Shiro says how did the fallen get the guns working then Saladen lashes out at him and says it's not the fallen it's SIVA. And again another misunderstood "enemy" SIVA is a weapon/tool and the fallen are the ones pulling the triggers if it wasn't for the SIVA in powering us we would have never killed aksis...
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I'm going to be fairly blunt. Understanding is not the same as accepting. It's easy to neglect to understand a common thief is a product of their environment. Growing up in poverty, hungry, and constant strife from neglectful parents or unfortunate circumstances. Regardless they are accountable for their actions. The Cabal are slavers, killers, and cruel in pursuing their goals. The Fallen were once noble, and now are corrupted by desperation. Their pilgrimage brings only strife upon themselves and any other races. The Vex are an infestation upon this world. Their very structures a biological hazard. They seek to end the timeline to prevent their extinction. In other timelines they have committed this genocide. The Hive razed worlds, anhilated races, and abandoned any morality they had to gain power, to satisfy hunger.
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The future war is coming
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[quote]Epesolon, Titan Archivist[/quote] [quote]Titan[/quote] [quote]Archivist[/quote] I think you'll find those are two very separate things
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We're zombies, we've moved beyond the constraints of right and wrong.
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Hive are ruthless, hungry. If we didn't fight, we'd face annihilation. If we were to exceed in a goal of completely eradicating the Hive, it'd be cleansing our system of a plague. The Fallen, I can't even call pirates or scavengers anymore. Throughout the wars we've had with them, they've come to the point where they no longer are a threat to us, but a threat to themselves. They are trying to pick up pieces of themselves in order to survive. Continuous fighting may be their end. Although, the Fallen House of Kings is a questionable subject, but it is hard to understand anything of them if all we know is that we do not know of them. They are the unknown force, worth keeping an eye on. Point is, peace very well may be an option, as would extinction, due to how weak the Fallen are. The Cabal are imperialists. They are Newton's Law. They will not stop unless they are forced to stop, and the Vex themselves may have well done that. Zavala says we are at war with the Cabal, but I do not think that is the case. I think the Cabal are at war with the Vex, and we became a third party. Second priority. I do doubt we could avoid them in the future, though. It is unlikely there will be peace, or a ceasefire, or any such circumstance. We will just have to show them who's boss, and tell them not to come back. Now, the Vex. Nasty, I know. Incommunicable. I don't see a point in even making terms with them, because we do not know if they would even recognize us in any way other than enemies. A threat, even trash. Therefor, I would say there's no hope with stopping anything with the Vex. Though, too much about them and their motives are unknown, I cannot really make a judgement.
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Nope, the fallen are too far gone. The Eliksni no longer exist.
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Interesting. As I hunter, I can sympathize with the whole, "I shouldn't question this because half the time I'm ducking from their bullets", because I frequently am. But I question it anyways. What if we didn't have a kill on sight order? What if we could sit down and chat with them. Even if we don't come out as friends, maybe we can stop shooting at each other, and start shooting the hive or the taken. I would hope that the vex could be reasoned with, and we can establish a truce or at least a ceasefire. They seek to understand, to survive. Maybe they could join us realizing that we are the best option. The fallen are desperate scavengers. Maybe if we made a deal or truce. I mean, they are sentient, and basically like our pirates. So, maybe we can be allies. The cabal, I'm not so sure about. They seem aggresive, but maybe if we help in their path of conquest, we can avoid total war with them. They seem to understand honor, so, maybe if we have a duel, we can just decide ownership of the Sol system by whoever wins. If they win, they do what they want, if we win, they leave us alone. In any case, until the time comes where we can sit down and chat, I'll keep killing and reclaiming territory. May the light shine from behind you, Ghost v Grim, GunStalker (Get it? GunStalker?)
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What was the question
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As a warlock I question why we fight every day I wonder if I truly serve the sky or some corrupted form of the light I wonder if the Traveler is truly a being of good or a mass murder like the book of sorrows tells us and finally I wonder if Osiris has figured this all out and if I can find him he will show me the true way
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I live the wilderness and shoot shit that's what I do... I'm no peacekeeper
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There is no morality involved when defying extinction. It is the natural order of things.
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As a Hunter (and as such not one to normally give a shit about things like this) I have to say, this [i]almost[/i] makes me understand why Warlocks always have their noses buried in their books. So, I'll take up your call, even if I'm the only one who does so.
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Edited by Swiftlock: 10/25/2016 6:16:37 PMNah. They're all jerks. Cabal took over Mars and killed Cayde's scouts, Vex took over Venus, Hive took over the Moon, Fallen slaughtered a bunch of earth-dwellers at Twlight Gap and conducted horrific experiments on the Hive, etc. And the Guardians commit systematic genocide on them for wronging us. None of us are angels.