"Subclass allows a titan to do extremely well without firing a single bullet" What, like the other classes don't have that? Every subclass has abilities that other classes don't but those other classes make up for it with what they have. Nightstalkers can throw a grenade and another projectile that holds you in place while the grenade kills you: you don't have to fire a bullet then... And Shadestep allows you to juke people out of their minds and be extremely difficult to shoot at... My point is that all classes have ways to do well without firing bullets. And the OHK melee argument is not very valid- Shoulder Charge is not a striker's main melee, you have to sacrifice other perks (juggernaut) to do so, and if you run straight at somebody trying to queue up a charge you will get burst down very quickly since you can't fire a gun while sprinting. Also, agility and speed are 2 very different things. Yes, titans are the fastest class when you titan skate properly, although most people don't know how to do that. But they are by no means the most agile class. Hunters reign supreme in that department- A hunter with max agility and mida is insanely difficult to track, for example...

I could agree with you up to shoulder charge. The first point you brought up was that you sacrifice juggernaut to use it. You are not sacrificing a perk to choose another. You are deciding which is better for your play style. It is not a flaw that SC and juggernaut are in the same column. If you are implying running shoulder charge is a sacrifice you are sadly mistaken. I don't think you get it. Best speed in game with a one hit melee, anywhere on the body. That is by definition OP. On top of that you have a normal melee charge as well. Do not say it is hard to get kills with shoulder charge. If you use it correctly, for example how prodigy uses it, it is WAY too good. If you get gunned down in shoulder charge that is your fault for not avoiding it. Just because you can die mid shoulder charge doesn't make it balanced.

Several things- Perhaps I misspoke, on the point about sacrificing perks. But I stand by shoulder charge being balanced. The first thing you say is that it is by definition OP. I am not sure you get it. If it was overpowered, then people would not have ways to counter it. Shoulder charge can be countered by every single class, and this does not make it overpowered. The second thing you say is that it is not hard to get kills with it, and then bring up other players. Prodigy has a very specific play style, and if you watch him enough, you will see that of all the times he gets a kill with shoulder charge, there are plenty of times where he gets burst down because you leave yourself exposed while sprinting forward in a straight line. Just because one streamer uses it a ton does not make it overpowered.

After I ranted about shoulder charge I decided to use it in the crucible. So I leveled up my striker and set out with it. Most games no matter the game mode I averaged about 4 shoulder charge kills. If I wasn't playing on shoulder charge I wouldn't have had nearly as many melee kills. Yes shoulder charge is a different play style but it is just too strong. I would very rarely get countered out of my shoulder charge because, if you play smart it is extremely hard to counter. I also noticed that shoulder charge has ridiculous Aim Assist. As long as a striker is in the general area of an opponent he will get a shoulder charge kill on them. The other problem I see with it is its range. It currently kill from farther than a shotgun can. Now yes it is easily counter able with a universal remote or maybe a warlock melee. But hunters and other titans who don't want to have to change their load out to fight one thing simply have to just die from shoulder charges. I noticed your main point was that if it was OP you wouldn't be able to counter it. But when thorn was at the top of the meta red death could counter it, so your point doesn't make sense in that regard. What makes something OP is when it is so much better than everything else that people have to change their load outs to counter it. Now I don't know about you, but I don't want to have to be forced to use a universal remote or a conspiracy theory every rime a striker is in a game with me.

You mention that if you play it is extremely hard to counter, and while I think that people playing smart should be more difficult to kill than those without good tactics, I don't think that it is really that hard to counter. I find it hard to believe that out of the little time you use it, which you mentioned, you never or almost never got killed while sprinting to try and activate it. After having used it extensively, it is not that easy to counter, but by no means impossible or extremely difficult to avoid. You then mention that shoulder charge has high aim assist, which it kind of has to have for it to be usable- Imagine that you shoulder charged at someone and all they needed to do was primary jump over you and then easily shoot you in the back. You then say that you have to use a shotgun to counter it, and again, this is not as true as you might think. I almost never use shotgun and very rarely use universal remote except when I am feeling like it for whatever reason. I can still very easily counter striker titans rushing at me because they (at least 3/5 times) run in a straight line without firing at me, which gives me no problem taking them down. On my titan, I run the same load out every game and I rarely have to change it due to class abilities. Again, this varies from person to person, so you may have different experiences. Also, you cannot say that Red Death was a good counter to Thorn, because you had to rely on your opponent missing shots to win such a fight. Let me try and give an example: If two highly skilled players with good aim and spatial awareness go head to head, and one is using Thorn while the other is using Red Death, the one with Thorn is going to win much, much more frequently then the Red Death user. But if one was using shoulder charge, you would see that the shoulder charge user wouldn't always get the kill, but neither would the one who is trying to counter it. I am unsure if that makes sense, and I know there are a whole lot of other factors to throw in. Furthermore, you mention that when something is OP, people have to change their load out to counter it, and as I mentioned above, that is not always true. But, again this varies from person to person, and while some might have to change their load out to counter something, others might not. Finally, I would like to know what load out you use in most of your games, without considering the changes that you might make supposedly because of shoulder charge.

On my hunter I run last word longbow for sweats and usually a sniper hand cannon or hand cannon shotgun for normal play. On my Titan I usually run mida conspiracy theory, I will either run twilight or arms depending on map and opponents. Again what I meant by changing load outs is that yes a shoulder charge running straight at you is easy to counter but one who plays correctly is very hard to counter even with a last word. Most of the time when I do get shoulder charged on my hunter it is around a corner on a map like fire base. This ties into its tracking like abilities. I will often shoulder charge someone and they will jump while I am shoulder charging and I will still get them. I even curve around corners with my shoulder charge. It is basically like a shotgun when used this way. After playing shoulder charge on my Titan I have learned that it only takes skill to dodge an opponents fire, once you get to the opponent there is no skill required. The reason I think shoulder charge should be nerfed is that it is giving a free one hit melee with health recovery ( depending on your build) all you have to do is run for 2 seconds and get to an opponent. The other reason I think shoulder charge is a little too strong is context. On maps like shores of time, yeah it is easy to stop and the Titan can not do much to stop from being killed with it, but on maps like fire base and even twilight gap, shoulder charge is insane. Do I think it is the most OP thing in destiny? NO do I think it is balanced? NO

No other class can go invisible, except hunters!

Ok so invisibility is not good at all in PvP

Hunters have backstab, a one hit melee... [spoiler]that still activates from the front[/spoiler]

It does not activate from the front anymore. I have been running blade since the patch and I have only gotten one shots in the back. Unless you are playing mayhem, you shouldn't be getting backstabbed.

If you say so, I'm getting backstabbed slightly off to my side's then. But my point of hunters having a ohk melee still stands.

Lol try throwing a lighting grenade at the face of someone or near you and enjoy dying to you own grenade, lighting nades needs to be aimed and also it need 2 ticks of damage to kill so its not op at all.

"Lightning grenades need to be aimed so they arent op" you have to aim with all grenades😂 how else would you ever do any damage if you didn't aim. How do you think people get sticky grenade kills they throw it onto someone and they blow up. All grenades take the ability to aim. Lightning grenades do too much damage for their aoe

Well yeah you have to aim them.. what i meant was that you have to stick them in walls often 90 or 45 degrees from were you at to be effective, so lighting nades in the open are useless since you can only stick them at the ground. You cant panic a lighting nade unless you dont mind killing yourself they are the same as spike nades and noneone says spike nades are OP.

Because spike nades do damage over time. You can realize it is doing damage and get out of it. A lightning grenade does damage on impact and makes the opponent one shot. The two really are not comparable besides the fact that they have big AoE's. And I have noticed more and more recently that lightning grenades are damaging me even if they hit the ground next to me facing up. They have such a big AoE that they are forgiving for small mistakes in placement. And just like tripmines they can hurt the user. That doesn't determine if they are OP or not.

Troubleshooting tips: 1.Try restarting your console. 2. If that doesn't work, try to power cycle. Unplug your console and disconnect all cords, accessories, etc and leave for approximately 1 minute. Then plug it back in and try again. 3. If that doesn't work, have you...maybe...tried not standing in the lightning? So what you're saying is if they miss they're melee they'll throw a grenade and finish you off with their gun? How....shocking...cuz no other class or game has that ever happened... As for one hit melee's go, the arc warlock has one under 2 conditions I believe. As well as it's how the class is designed dummy. Take a step back and think. Hunters, do they look overtly physical? Do they look like they'd be a good boxer? No, hunters are distance fighters with the exception of the blade dancer and that's only because it's their super. Warlocks are a MAGE type class, they 99% don't have strong melee, again except arc warlock. They're a magicish class, void drains and can heal, fire injures over time. Now TITANS and specifically STRIKERS, what do those names say to you? Physical and aggressive with power. They are meant to be like that, and if it was such an issue where was all the outcry before this last series of updates? The defender is a defensive/support class, so yeah it's melee isn't going to be overly powered damage wise. The sunbreaker is a attack/support class, so it's melee hurts/makes enemy take more damage. But I doubt you'll bother reading this.

You are missing the point. The striker is the only subclass in the game with a one hit melee. And it doesn't require a charge. As long as said titan runs 2 meters they have one ready to go. This melee also has the most range in the game with very few exceptions. Does that not scream op to you? Strikers can win any and every melee battle. And they have superior movement over all other classes with titan skate and twilight garrison. Look up a video on youtube by a channel named cerridius. His titan beats a SPARROW in a race. On top of the best agility in the game and the best melee in the game the striker now has the best grenade in the game since firebolt and tripmine have been nerfed. Not only does it have one of the biggest AoE's in the game, but it makes any enemy one shot, and any self respecting striker has armamentarium on and has two of them. Lightning grenades are a garunteed way to get an opponent in a gunfight to one shot. I cannot say the same about any other grenade in the current meta. If you are sitting here trying to tell me that a striker takes skill then you are mistaken. So, you might ask, why are you just now calling it op? I personally have always thought that strikers have needed a nerf, but because they remain as one of the only subclasses barely touched since vanilla, they naturally excel in the crucible. In conclusion there is no denying that the striker has the best neutral game in this current meta, do to a one hit melee with more range than most opponents have, and grenades with high damage and a high AoE.

Blinkstrike + Backstab is a OHK I would love to see a Titan pull off a SC in a melee fight, rushing at someone while getting SC rdy to go is not a melee fight You pull a shotgun and put them down But when Bungie gives me a standing SC to use vs Drain and Blinkstrike, let me know

Blink strike has to be from behind though after the most recent patch to be a one hit kill. And unless you are playing mayhem it is your fault for getting attacked from behind. Shoulder charge eliminates the need for a melee fight as you can end it before it starts. When you run shoulder charge you can be shotgunned but you can be shotgunned anytime you get in a melee fight.

Still a OHK and if ya get slammed by a running Titan that's your fault I gun them down unless they get me from the side or behind

If i am using a sniper and a last word how do you expect me to better than a trade witha shoulder charging titan? Most of the time I kill him mid shoulder charge and his body kills me.