This says that god rules with fear. Which is also not ok.

If you were the all-powerful Creator of everything, I'm pretty sure lots of people would fear you even if you didn't make a covenant with them like the one that the Israelites had with God. And do you think that God enjoys punishing His people? That is not so: "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? -Ezekiel 18:23". "How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. -Matthew 18:12-14"

Well of course some would naturally fear such a powerful thing. If said thing doesn't want us to fear it, it's up to him to address that since he is the all powerful one. People live by the term "god fearing" and are ok with that. That's the better question. Why would anyone be ok with being feared into something?

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. -Matthew 10:28" Here, Jesus sums it up pretty well; other people may hate you, torture you, kill you, but that's all they can do to you. They can't torture your soul, or really do anything to you then. On the other hand, God--and only God-- has "the power to inflict that destruction where all offers of mercy and all calls to righteousness have been rejected" as Charles Ellicott wrote in his commentary of the New Testament. And [url=http://www.christianitytoday.com/biblestudies/bible-answers/spirituallife/what-does-it-mean-to-fear-god.html]here,[/url] I found an article that offers other reasons behind the term "God-fearing". According to the site, "fearing God is good because it saves us from caving into our own sinful nature", and it is essentially a check and balance against how we would normally sinfully act in a situation. If a person fears God, "they are more likely to keep their word and treat others with kindness."

I see no reason to assume there are souls and the concept of "sin" is dehumanizing and degrading to me. I try to make sure my actions don't negatively impact others as often as humanly possibly. My "belief" is empathy, discovery, and humanity. Anything else is not reciprocal and a distraction to reality. To the reality of our situation. The human situation.

Not reciprocal...What do you mean by this? Do you mean that you think nothing except empathy, discovery, and humanity would be given to you in return if you gave them first? Why wouldn't you always want to give empathy and kindness to others? Why not give empathy and kindness to other people fully knowing you may not even be acknowledged or thanked for it? How much more love and kindness would there be if we simply gave it to others [i]in spite[/i] of them and their potentially hostile reactions? If we gave love to people who don't deserve it? Do you think this is just some vain way of thinking that shouldn't be followed? And how do you define this "human situation"? And why is the concept of sin dehumanizing? Because if I think there is a single characteristic that describes all of mankind, it is sin: we are all imperfect people, we all have been or are mean and hateful to others in various ways, and this is true even if you don't believe in the Lord.

The human situation is that we know way less than we want to admit and we fill the gaps in our knowledge with beliefs. Which too often lead to people claiming to "know" things that they clearly do not. As for what's reciprocal, empathy is reciprocal. Not always because some people just aren't capable of it. However it's much more reciprocal than any sense of morality derived from any belief where a fear of an unknown is the defining factor. Mainly death and the idea of what comes after it. Fear of punishment and promise of reward in a supposed afterlife is probably one of the most damaging things we have done and continue to do to ourselves. We can admit when we're wrong, and we should, but we don't need to perpetuate the mentality of original sin. For too many people, simply being human is what they define as sin. We don't need to apologize for simply being human. Having defined it and guilting people for it is dehumanizing. It's even worse with a created list of "don'ts" and explained punishments. That's not morality. It's just attempting to enforce specific behaviors. It's not learned from empathy. Nothing is that black and white either.

1. Your definition of "the human situation" seems pretty reasonable. Any old thing shouldn't be believed unless you have some pretty solid evidence, and this applies to anything from a scientific description of gravity to a religious faith in Christ. What I mean is that, although faith does imply trusting in things that you haven't seen for yourself and may include a bit of doubt, not many people would be Christians if they didn't have at least [i]one[/i] reason that they find undeniable. I don't think that faith is always 100% unjustifiable. This applies to people living now and people living two thousand years ago, and even people before that. Hundreds of years before Christ was born, there were prophets who spoke of how He would be born, be "numbered among the transgressors", be put to death, and overcome death. These prophets never lived to see it, and had no reason to believe any of it outside of the fact that God told them such things would happen, and yet those things nevertheless came to pass. 2. I think you're caught up on the idea of "fear too much". Yes, we do and should fear God. Like I said earlier, the Lord alone has the power "to destroy both soul and body in hell". However, He also sent Christ to die for us so that we may escape this fate. If you could just stop and think about that, I believe you would be filled with joy. Although we deserve destruction, instead Christ gives us the gift of everlasting life if only we trust on Him. The fear of God is what keeps us in check with our own selves, but our joy of God is what makes us want to go and spread our joy, so that others may be filled with it as well. And yes, you will be rewarded in Heaven, but it is better when you do good to others for their sake and to please God, and not for your own benefit. However, like you said, this "sense of morality" is less reciprocal; you can't always expect people to give you kindness in return for yours, and indeed you shouldn't; in fact, don't bother expecting anyone to be kind back to you. The point is that you give out kindness freely to all, even though you have no incentive to do so, and even though your incentive would be to give kindness only to those who would give it back to you. Yes, I will admit this is very hard; but if everyone did this, I bet half of the world's problems would be gone. Even as I type this, I pray you may be blessed, and I hope you find some sort of happiness today (or tomorrow, depending on where you live), even though we are currently having this discussion and even though I have no idea who you are personally. 3. No, you don't need to apologize for simply "being human", but you can't deny that there's room for all of us to improve. It might sound like just some "list of don'ts", but that is exactly what any moral code at all is, whether made by man or by the God who decided that we should have free will, even if it meant we also had the irresistible capacity to sin. However, there's no need to guilt anyone. Like I said above, Christ gave us the gift of everlasting life. We did not deserve it one bit, but yet He loved us enough to die for us. This is the payment for all our sins, all the imperfections in our character, and it makes us free from the bondage of sin.

The reason "prophets" spoke of those events is because the story of Jesus isn't exactly original. His story compares to that of Horus, Dionysis, and others before him. It's just a retelling of supposed figures that came before. All of which have been written off as myth already. Why shouldn't the current iteration of that story be written off either? I've seen it said before and I think it bears repeating, today's religion is tomorrow's myth. This is how it has always been throughout human history. I see nothing unique about today's major religions to exclude them from that. As for fear where it pertains to religion, it just shows us giving in. We're victims of our own condition and religion is too often the epitome of that being expressed. We have much to gain from recognizing that and letting it go. I'm not saying we shouldn't admit our imperfections. Nobody is perfect. In fact that's part of my issue with the concept of god. Perfection is objective. To be told what is perfect is an enforcement. We stand to gain more from working on ourselves from within, not through some supposed supernatural entity that requires that level of belief. One of the biggest mistakes we make is assuming that something is looking out for and will protect us. Especially when there is not enough evidence to suggest that that is actually the case.

Why shouldn't it be written off? I think it would be good to note that the 66 books that make up the Old and New Testaments were written over the course of about 2,000 years by 40 authors, who lived across 3 continents, all written among three languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek). Can this level of coordination be said about any of those other "figures"? I find it impressive, to say the least. Oh, also there's this one verse from the Book of Micah, prophesying how Jesus would be born in Bethlehem: “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting. -Micah 5:2” Also, Micah prophesied approximately 737–696 BC, which was many hundreds of years before Christ was born in Bethlehem. So, you're also saying that religion is a byproduct of our fear of the unknown? Well, let's consider this using one particular aspect. I don't know about you, but hell sounds a lot scarier than death ever could be, and I don't understand why people would just believe that such a place, whether a place or a state of mind, existed unless they had pretty big reasons to. The definition of the word "objective" in the last paragraph is, from just a simple Google search, "not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts." However, the way you say "To be told what is perfect is an enforcement" right afterwards implies you meant to use "subjective". Subjective means "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions". I just wanted to point this out because it sounded like you confused the two words. Also, I think we stand to gain more from following Christ; would you ever otherwise regard others more highly than yourself? I doubt I would, or many other people, because there's no incentive to do so. And yet, this would motivate you to do more good that if you didn't believe in Christ and were left to love only yourself and only those that also loved you. For a more relatable example, imagine all the terrible drivers you may or may not have in your city. When one of them dangerously cuts you off or blocks oncoming traffic at an intersection or doesn't yield to pedestrians, what is your usual response? To stay mad at them and wish curses on them? I, personally, try to control that hatefulness and forgive them or pray for blessings for them instead, like Jesus would probably recommend everyone do. And yes, you shouldn't assume that you'll be protected from all the bad things in life just because you trust in Christ; "...for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. -Matthew 5:45" The special part is that trusting in Christ gives hope that you can overcome whatever challenges face you; "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. -1 Corinthians 10:13" I certainly think I've seen this happen a lot in my own life. What about you? Whatever hardships you may be going through right now, I pray you may be able to overcome them.

I've read it. That doesn't sound like coordination. It sounds like cherry picking. From previous myths that were once thought to be true. Like I said, the story of Jesus is not original. The virgin birth, the last supper, the betrayal, the resurrection, and many other things come from previous myths. Even the holidays aren't original. Many of them come from pagan traditions. Easter and Christmas included. Quoting things from it does nothing for me. Even if I thought the intention was from a divine source, the book is flawed because humans are flawed. If it requires "interpretation", to be described as metaphor, or is often distinguished by the use of the wood [i]version[/i], it is flawed because humans are flawed. It is dated and [b]very[/b] much a reflection of our level of ignorance at the time in which is was conceived. As for hell, what you said is exactly the problem with it. It's using fear of something that can't currently be proven to attempt to dictate people's actions. If a human does that to another human being it is seen as bad behavior or even referred to as terrorism if extreme enough. In that case people's reasons for acting considerably towards others are much less genuine, if at all, and not derived from empathy. If heaven is a utopia for everyone, they are being forced to accept it because like I said, perfection is subjective(I did use the wrong word, thank you). I do overcome hardships. Everyone does. That's life. It's inescapable. Telling myself something is looking out for me has never once comforted me. You know what did help me get through it? People. Actual human beings that I can interact with that comfort me, help me, and provide insight on situations that I needed help seeing. Many of which share the same outlook on life as me. That don't assume they are being watched and guided. We are in this together and we have [b]no[/b] reason to give in to complacency and assume we are being watched over by a higher power. We change things. We help each other. When we mess up, it's our fault. When we fix things it's because we overcame it. We are capable of so much more than belief. We are capable of love, discovery, creation, and empathy. "There is not enough love and kindness in the world to give any of it away to imaginary beings." -Friederich Nietzsche

Sorry for not replying until now, but I was busy this weekend. I agree with you regarding the holidays. They were celebrated in pagan ways to satisfy pagan converts, and I don't think that should've ever been done. No one even knows what day Jesus was born, and it should actually be some time of the year closer to late summer/fall, like September, instead of in the winter, according to a few sources. However, although humans are obviously flawed, I don't believe God would allow His Words to be corrupted by humans to the point that the genuine message is forever lost from the world, especially if He claims to love us and desire for us to know about Him. I would like to have printings of the oldest possible manuscripts, and accurate translations of those into English, but until that time I will stick with my King James Bible and not with any of the numerous newer bibles that have been published since. It is people that use and abuse the threat of condemnation to manipulate others with fear, not God. I've just spent the last two hours or so reading a few articles on how Church leaders throughout history have done this, which I do not like one bit. When Jesus commissioned His Apostles to go out into the world and teach, He didn't say to teach through fear. They were given power to do miracles, heal, cure, etc. Very joyous things, right? Not showing people visions of hell and suffering that would come on them if the didn't believe. On a related note, I will tell you that I've heard various things on what exactly hell might be. I'll start by assuming that is in an entirely different area of existence that this universe in which we live. But is it a literal fiery place, like Gehenna is referred to as? Is it simply a place away from the presence of God, where His enemies can see His infinite love, yet know that they will never have that love? The latter place would be solely a place of regret and sorrow and weeping. What it is exactly, I do not know. What I do know is that the happiness of being with God forever is stressed much, much more than the sorrow of being without God. But, then, you do not know what Heaven is. Neither do I, nor any other person; "For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him. -Isaiah 64:4". I've read it be called a place of rest, and a place in which we will have a full understanding of God and His love. I can't imagine people feeling as if they have to "settle" for it or that they won't be happy in Heaven, even with no knowledge of what awaits us there. On the final point, you are right that we shouldn't be complacent and just assume God will keep us safe from everything. I remember this one thing Jesus said in one of the Gospel books (and, alas, I have been unable to find what verses they are right now). He criticizes the Pharisees that He was talking to because they had one time passed by a poor beggar, and rather than give money or food, all they did was say "Peace", or "God bless you". In modern times, I've heard news stories of parents refusing to give medicine to their children and bad things that have resulted from it. In light of the verses I'm thinking about, I have to say that those stories disappoint me. Praying is good, and part of my hope in God is that He will "make all things new (Revelation 21:5)" and make perfect this flawed world; but when resources are available, whether they be physical goods or moral/spiritual wisdom, they should be used for the good needs and purposes that they can satisfy. I pray that you and all the people you mentioned may be blessed and find rest and peace and whatever else you may need.

Thanks for the thought out and intelligent responses. That isn't common in these debates. From both sides. As for me, I've already found peace in that regard. I found it when I stopped worrying about and relying on what "might" be and what would be nice were it true. About what comes after death, if anything. About where we came from. I think it's just wishful thinking. I feel more alive than I ever have and just the thoughts of what might be out there amaze me. I prefer to consider where we are going. I have no problem with people believing in something even if I think it's just wishful thinking, if it gets them through life. In fact, I know someone who "found religion"(not Christianity though). Had he not, he'd likely be in prison for life or even dead. And he knows this and admits it. I think this often seen scenario speaks volumes for the state of mind belief holds people in. It's comparable to addiction. That's another conversation entirely though. The problem is that too often we can't keep these beliefs, which equate to little more than wishful thinking, to ourselves. We perpetuate complacency by doing this. I just think we stand more to gain from letting that go. I wonder how people will look at religious beliefs, which are just ideas on the nature of existence, when we start creating life or even universes. Those are seemingly the only major attributes that we associate with being a god left that we haven't already started doing ourselves even if only in some minuscule capacity.

You are welcome, and thank you as well. Not a single curse word was thrown at either person, which I like. As for me, though, the things I've seen in my life so far have shown me a good place to put my faith in, and I try to grow in it every day. I don't know about you, but I'd like to put an end to this discussion. I'm physically tired (it's midnight here), I'm mentally and emotionally tired (I don't want to talk about it), and I'd rather not keep doing this if we don't have to. I pray for good things for you and everyone in your life, and see you around.